The trouble with Nigeria by Ayo Oritsejafor

Pastor Ayo Oritsejafor, President of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) is a clergyman noted for telling it like it is. In this no holds-barred interview with FESTUS ERIYE in Port Harcourt, he discusses the trouble with Nigeria, why negotiations with Boko Haram don’t make sense, and his amazement over the United States’ reluctance to declare the sect an FTO, among other issues.

Every year at this time, there is a ritual when people start talking about how Nigeria has not measured up to the expectations of its founding fathers. This year, in your own assessment, should we be lamenting or rejoicing?

I think you put it correctly when you said it’s like a ritual. Having the anniversary celebration every year is like a ritual as far as I am concerned. The truth is, when you look at Nigeria the way it is, in my opinion, the only reason why we can, at least, say ‘thank God’ is that we still exist as a nation. Otherwise, I don’t see physically anything to celebrate. The celebration would be that we still exist as a nation. Thank God for that, because I believe that Nigeria is still a nation to be hopeful about. I look more to the future and believe that the situation will not remain like this.

If you look at some nations of about the same age as us, you’ll find that many have become like medium powers. Some of them that used to depend on Nigeria for expertise in areas of agriculture like Malaysia are already substantially industrialised. What would you say is the trouble with Nigeria?

I think that basically we are a nation of hypocrites; we pretend a lot. We know what our problems are but we never like to confront them. And anybody who would like to confront them, in a sense, becomes the enemy. I think that is part of our problem. But then if you really want to give a name to the problem of Nigeria, the major problem of Nigeria is corruption. Corruption has eaten from top down, from down up. There is no segment of the society today where you don’t find corruption. Corruption is like a worm that eats slowly. And it has eaten so much that there is nothing that holds anything together that has not been affected by his cankerworm called corruption. So, when you have a society where honesty is thrown to the dogs, where integrity has no place; when you have a society where people don’t live on principles but on immediate gratification, then definitely that society cannot move. It’s not as if here is no corruption in elsewhere of the world, but it is in a sense ‘controlled corruption’. It is not this bad. It is not this type of corruption where a group of people come out to say ‘we want to probe corruption in this place.’ Then, you find out that the people probing these people need to be probed too. Then you ask yourself, ‘where is this thing going to end? So nothing sees the light of day. Nothing that can create progress would see the light of day because just all about money… In that condition what happens? Now, Boko Haram has complicated it and has taken the problem now to another level. So when you have corruption and you have corruption on one hand, insecurity on the other hand, my brother, you need divine intervention. And I think that is where Nigeria is right now.

People have been quick to blame ‘leadership’- by which they mean political official holders. But everyone knows the difference between good and bad – so we should blame the church, leaders of faith, the followership: who should we blame?

We are all to blame. Nobody is exempted from the blame. Naturally, the major blame would be on the political leaders because as a faith leader I don’t have legislative power; I don’t have executive power; I don’t have any kind of powers except the powers given to me by God to stand behind the pulpit and preach. And that I have done by the grace of God faithfully for 40 years. And anybody who knows me knows that I am one of those who will tell you the truth. If you love it, God bless you; if you don’t it’s your business. But you must first begin by blaming the political leaders because when you look back, the situation where we find ourselves did not begin today. It has been a gradual process – something that developed from level to another level. And because it was not dealt with at the very initial stage… Most of these problems started developing in the late 70s; that’s when it started building gradually. If it had been dealt with then probably we would not be where we are. The greatest problem, I think, was the intervention of the military into the political life of this nation. They ruined Nigeria. Wherever we find ourselves today, they must take at least 60% of the blame. So, you cannot run away from putting the blame squarely at their doorstep. But as a faith leader I must take part of the blame too. Can I really say I have done all what I ought to have done all these years? Well, to a large extent, I think I have. Still, a lot of the people who are doing the things causing corruption in Nigeria go to church. So, who do you blame for that? Probably, I am not saying what I should be saying the way I should be saying it. But at the same time a lot of them only want to hear what they want to hear. This thing has developed to an extent that a lot of people are hardened. They are so hardened that they don’t even hear well anymore. They don’t care about whatever you’re trying to say. You can say all you want but what they want to do is already in their mind. That still does not mean I should not take part of the blame. So the blame goes around. If we can admit that we all have blame, we should all now ask God for forgiveness, and ask the average Nigerian for forgiveness. We should all repent of what we have done to ourselves. Look at the nation! Do we really like where we are? Is this where Nigeria should be? I don’t think so. Nigeria can be better. That is why we have declared a three-day fasting in the church from September 27th, 28th and 29th and on the 30th, we will have the service at the National Ecumenical Centre. The Muslims are doing the same thing. Whatever prayer from that service would go on beyond that: we have a plan for prayers for the next one year – a systematic prayer that would take place in all our churches for the next one year. So, we must ask forgiveness and decide we can’t continue this way. Look, we’ve almost consumed the goodwill of our children. Sometimes, it is so discouraging when you see that many of the politicians who are doing what they are doing now are young. If young people are doing what they are doing now, what hope do we have? It’s so bad.

Leaders of faith like yourself have uncommon access to the political leaders. What people would like to know is what goes on when you get together with these leaders? Do you convey the frustrations of the average man who does not have that kind of access to our leaders? What really happens at these encounters?

Whenever I have the opportunity to talk to them, I do tell them. You see, like we said, something is basically wrong. A lot of our politicians are heavy on promises but very low on delivery. It is not that we are short of words to say. I don’t want to mention names, but I have been in situations when I would say I won’t pray. What am I praying about? If you didn’t listen to me why must I pray for you at this point? There have been situations like that – not necessarily with those in leadership now but down through the years. The romance with darkness and wrong has been so strong with a lot of these people… it’s like I said, it doesn’t matter what you tell them now, but the moment they leave you it is a different thing. People they will be speaking with is a different thing; the kind of deals they will go into is a different thing. Some of them are so desperate for political power they can even sell their soul just to get that power. At the end of the day, Nigeria suffers for it. So what do you do? The Bible instructs us ‘pray for your leaders.’ So we cannot stop praying for them. We have to continue praying for them – even with all the mess.

So what should committed Christians do? Do they sit on their high horses pointing the finger at godless politicians or jump in there, get their hands dirty and see if they can make a difference?

I don’t know where we got this thing wrong that we have so separated state and church as the Americans would call it. The separation has become so wide that there’s a total disconnect. It’s so wide to the point where the average human being who’s a Christian goes to church on Sunday, listens to a sermon, and walks out of church and believes he left God in that building. He goes and he lives two different lives. I believe committed Christians must get involved in politics. They must because, in a sense, if we wait for every politician to get it right, they may never get it right. I think it is important for committed Christians to take their commitment, their passion for God, their depth of faith and integrity into the political arena and begin to show that there are people who can still take a good stand for God. There a few of them out there now, but they are still very, very few – a lot more need to get into politics. This is what we are pushing; this is what we are saying to our people. Go out there, join the political party, begin to vie for positions, and prayerfully God can be able to position some of these people who are decent and proper and they will be able to find their way up in the right places where they can make the right decisions.

But somebody like Pastor Tunde Bakare did exactly that and many in Christendom criticised him saying he left his pastoral duties and went into politics. How do you respond to that?

I’m doing my best not to directly talk about Bakare. But, you see, I think what we need to understand is what some people are saying is that there’s nothing wrong with being a politician. But if you want to be a politician, be a politician. There’s nothing wrong with that. But if you want to be a pastor, then be a pastor. What they are saying is that you may not be able to, at the same time, pastor a church and hold a high profile political position. Pastor Bakare is someone I know and I don’t want to talk much about him. But I think he needs to connect more. There are so many things that I want to say that I don’t think it is proper for me to saying it in public. I’d rather say them to him one on one.

This year’s Independence anniversary is being celebrated against the backdrop of the unprecedented Boko Haram insurgency. In a recent interview you were quoted as saying it was political…

I have never said it was political. You journalists, sometimes, you think up a caption that will attract attention.

You never said it was political?

No, that was not what I said. I will tell you exactly what I said. Now, listen to me. I am going to say into your tape so that you will get it. In fact, I am going to be repeating what I am saying now at on Sunday in Abuja – at a public forum at the National Christian Center. Boko Haram is being fuelled not by poverty. Let me explain that a little bit further. Bin Laden did not come from a poor family. He was from an extremely rich family in Saudi Arabia. He wasn’t into what he was doing because he was poor. That young man, Muttallab (Farouk Abdulmuttalab) that wanted to blow up a plane on Christmas Day over Detroit in the US, did not attempt to do what he did because he was poor. He comes from a very wealthy family. Now, when you listen to Boko Haram themselves, they have never said once, ‘our problem is poverty’. They have never said once, ‘our problem is marginalisation’. They have never said, our problem is that we don’t have enough education. In fact they don’t want education. They have always said they want one thing: Sharia as the constitution of Nigeria – period. So, Boko Haram is not fuelled by poverty; Boko Haram is fuelled by a religious fundamentalist ideology. It is an Islamist ideology. Not all Muslims are Islamists. Some are, but not all. And Boko Haram is built on this ideology. It is a terrible satanic ideology that says it is either what we want, the way we want it, or nothing else. Boko Haram is funded from within by those who want to use Boko Haram to create political space for themselves. Boko Haram is not political but there are people who have political inclinations who think they can use Boko Haram. So they give them a little here, a little there to help them. So Boko Haram is funded from within by such persons. Boko Haram is also funded from without by those who want to see Nigeria divided along religious or ethnic lines. These are the things that I said. I also said Boko Haram is sustained by media apologists who deliberately and internationally feed the public with politically correct half-truths. They have a strong media connection. They constantly confuse the public and make people think one way, when actually they are going this way. But they have never hidden their intention. They have never minced words about what they want. So, these were the things I said on Monday. I never said that Boko Haram is political. I believe there are good Muslims who believe in their religion and follow it properly, but these are fundamentalist Jihadist Islamists. Their ideology is one that they use to dominate the nation and take it over if possible.

From what you have said there is an international dimension to the funding of Boko Haram…

Oh, you better believe it!

Do you feel frustrated that your efforts to get the Americans to designate the group a Foreign Terrorist Organisation (FTO) have not worked so far?

To be honest with you, I’m not sure if I would say I feel frustrated: I am amused and amazed. It’s not because they don’t know the truth. They know the truth. They are probably learning how to be hypocritical themselves now. I don’t know if you’re aware that my stance of saying the American should designate Boko Haram as an FTO, is the stance of the FBI, CIA, the Justice Department Homeland Security. The only people who are against this stand are the State Department. All the actual security agencies are saying designate them as FTO. Why is the State Department doing this? You are journalists investigate! Look at Johnnie Carson (US Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs) – who are his friends in Nigeria? Go and find out: don’t hear it from me. What kind of connections do they have with Nigeria; who are those that they are connected to? These are the people that advise the State Department and create policies that Obama has to follow. Obama doesn’t know all the details: they are the ones that advise him, and I have a feeling that they are protecting the interests of certain persons. The moment Boko Haram is declared an FTO that gives a legal framework for all the security agencies to go after the money that Boko Haram receives. They will investigate and bring out the truth: all the financial connections would be exposed because they are not like us. They will bring out the truth about where Boko Haram is getting money from, and it will be told to the whole world. There are also those who are also afraid of this drone thing because it can target certain persons. So, I see a lot of protecting of interests. I’m just amazed to see high level hypocrisy. Everyone knows that Boko Haram is connected with every single terrorist organisation in the world. So, it is not designating them that is now going to make them popular. They are already connected with all these organisations. Where do they get their training from? Some of them go to Sudan, some to Somalia, some Tunisia, some from Morroco. Is that not international? When a German man was kidnapped and kept somewhere in Kano, are you aware that the Al-qaeda group in North Africa said to the German government, ‘if you release so and so of our people in your jail in Germany, we would release your man in Kano, Nigeria’. Is that not international enough for us? What are we talking about? I can go on and on. They attacked United Nations building. What are they trying to tell you? They are telling you that this organisation is international. They are connected everywhere. How do they get their funding like we were just saying now? We know Gaddafi’s connection with some of these things before he passed away. And we know where a lot of these arms have come from into Nigeria. So, they’re already connected. Then, some of our government officials who are making a ridicule of themselves or whatever way you want to look at it, telling us that if they designate Boko Haram as a terrorist group, it will affect Nigerians when they are travelling. Is it that that is affecting Nigeria? We’ve had problems for a long time because we have been targeted for drugs, we have been targeted for money laundering. So, what are you telling me? The moment they see your green passport today, without Boko Haram, they will still take you aside. So, what else are they going to do that is new? There are other countries where they have designated some group as terrorists, but did that now mean that that everybody from that country was a terrorist? No! And they know. It is not as if they don’t know. But, all this is a cover-up. There are all kinds of things going on, that are happening within our own Nigeria and other places. But, there is a conspiracy and God would expose it at the due time.

How do you respond to those who will criticise you for making this FTO thing into a magic bullet that would the crisis miraculously?

In fact, if you had followed my speech at the Congress in America, you would have seen that I said categorically that I know designating Boko Haram as a terrorist organisation is not going to just end Boko Haram. It is not going to just end all of our problems in Nigeria, but it is a right step in the right direction. It is an indication that there is some seriousness. It sends a message to our own government, it sends a message to the international community, it sends a message to Boko Haram themselves. That’s the point. There are some things that are symbolic but very powerful. So, it’s important.

Some people don’t understand why you are not enthusiastic about the decision of the Federal Government to negotiate with Boko Haram. What is wrong with negotiation when the authorities have not been able to resolve the problem militarily?

Well, I wonder why they would say they don’t understand. Again, that is another part of our hypocrisy in Nigeria. Even when they understand, they pretend as if they don’t understand. Now, how do you negotiate with a terrorist group? We all know that Boko Haram is a terrorist group. How do we negotiate with a terrorist group? Especially when you know that this terrorist group is based on a religious ideology, and they know have never hidden their intention. You and I know that at a point, they can out to say, ‘Jonathan, either you resign or you convert to Islam’. Then, they said if Christians want peace in Nigeria they should all convert to Islam. It is the same agenda, the same old agenda. It is nothing different. It is nothing new. Now, when you have that, what is the basis for this negotiation? These are the questions we are asking. How do you go into a negotiation without knowing what you want to negotiate? What are we going to be negotiating about when a people have told you what they want? They have told you that they want to Islamise the nation. So, you want to speak with them and say, ‘please don’t Islamise the nation?’ Or you want to tell them, ‘all right, can we do it 40-60? Can you take 40% of the nation?’ What exactly do you want to negotiate? At least, you should tell us as Nigerians so we know exactly what you are negotiating on our behalf. There is no basis for the negotiation. The militants in the Niger-Delta… when Yar’Adua wanted to bring the amnesty, what he said to them was, ‘drop your arms first.’ And that was the first step. He gave them a deadline. He said, ‘from this time to this time, you must drop your arms. If you don’t, we see you all as criminals’ and we will do whatever we want to do. But, if you drop your arms, we would sit with you and discuss.’ Now, why was it possible to discuss with those boys? There was no iota of religion involved. It was purely economical. It was about marginalisation. It was about pollution. It was about deprivation. It was about the situation there in the Niger Delta. When they said drop your arms, most of them said there is a way out and they dropped their arms. Please, help me convey this to Nigerians just in case there is still anybody who doesn’t really know what we are saying and why we are saying government should not negotiate with them.

Last week, there was an attack in Bauchi in which two or three people were killed…

No, four people were killed. One was the suicide bomber. Over 50 were hospitalised, and some in critical condition and we’re praying. We don’t know how many of them will survive.

In the face of these attacks Christian leaders at some point, are quoted as telling their followers to ‘defend’ themselves. Now, you find yourself in a dilemma because you have to contend the Scripture that says turn the other cheek. How do you handle the frustrations of your followers?

I am so glad you’re bringing up this issue because the frustrations of my followers make me also frustrated – because I feel for them. When you say, contend with Scripture that says turn the other cheek, the same Bible also says if you don’t have a sword, sell you coat and buy a sword. I just want to make you understand that all these are the same New Testament. But that is not the issue. The issue is that the government must legitimately permit people – if that must ever happen… it has to be a legal, legitimate, proper thing for anybody to carry arms. I will never support anybody to legally acquire arms and start running around the place – no! That is wrong. But I will always say defend yourself; protect yourself. It’s in the Koran, it’s in the Bible, it’s in the constitution of Nigeria – self preservation is part of the human instinct. It is the first thing that comes even to animals. When you attack somebody the first thing is he wants to protect himself. He would do something and try to defend himself. That is what we’re saying. Whatever means you have to protect yourself, protect yourself. It is madness for anybody to get angry with me for telling my people that are innocently being killed, and we say to them protect yourself! Whatever you have use it and do whatever you have to do to protect yourself. We’re not saying go and retaliate. We’re not saying attack anybody, but protect yourself. For God’s sake, what is wrong with telling people to protect themselves? Now, having said that, I also still believe in divine intervention. I believe that where we are in Nigeria today we need God’s divine intervention. That would mean that certain things will happen that would overturn, and turn this whole situation in such a way that those who are killing people today can come and say ‘Look, we regret what we have done.’ The Spirit of God can enter into them. The Spirit of God can also expose them in such a way that they are captured. It can happen in so many ways. I think it is important for us never to lose sight of that; to continue to go that way, and to pray and trust God. That is why we are doing the fasting we’re doing – beginning tomorrow (last Thursday, September 27) and through the weekend, and one-year prayer that we’re going to be doing. My prayer everyday is for quick divine intervention that will also probably enable our security agencies to quickly also find ways to end this thing – because no country can survive a religious war. It is so dangerous and deadly. What is happening to Christians, that is going on everyday… how long can I stop those people? If you know how many of them call me on the phone; some send delegations to me to say ‘Allow us,’ and I plead and say ‘No, you can’t do that. We’re Christians.’ We were not taught that way: what we were taught is to love our enemies. We preach all that and some walk out on me angry. But I pray and trust God that it will never get to the point where some of them – on their own – will just go and get whatever and start doing something. The problem is the moment it starts, you can’t stop it. I pray to God that we’ll never get to that point.

You recently marked 40 years in ministry. What would you consider the high and low points?

The very first high point I will mention is the day I gave my life to Christ, because that made all the difference. It was like a bright light came upon me. I used to be someone who had moods: I could be a little bit happy now and extremely sad the next minute. But the day I gave my life to Christ my life changed. I would mention one very low point in my 40 years in ministry. It’s not something I mention with joy: it was when my first wife died. This is the woman I married, lived with and slept on the same bed with for 20 years. She died in my arms. Actually she collapsed. I prayed and revived her. We both thought everything was okay, and I said ‘What happened?’ She just laughed. We thought everything was fine. She was in the shower and I walked into the bedroom; when I turned around again and she had collapsed. That was a very low point in my ministry. I don’t pray for anyone to have that experience; it was very, very painful. Thank God that almost two years later, God gave me a wife that I would say He used to wipe away my tears, to restore and complete me again. Mama Helen Oritsejafor is an incredible woman that God brought into my life to lift up my spirit. She has become another very high point in my life. Another very high point was when God blessed us with triplets. I didn’t have children all these years, and now we have two boys and a girl.

The triplets are your only children?

Yes.

All these years…

That’s it.

That’s a fantastic testimony.

Incredible! They are bundles of joy for us.

How old are they now?

They were six this month – third of September. That was another high point right there. Two other high points was when I became president of the Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria (PFN). I didn’t solicit for it; I was in a meeting…I had always been a member of the National Advisory Council of PFN all these years. I went to a meeting and that was how I was made president of PFN. That was another high point, and when I became president of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) – the first Pentecostal to get to that position. Another was when we complete our building which can seat over 35,000 people in Warri – to His glory. So there are many high points; I don’t have too many low points. But I give God the glory that everything in my life God has been good to me.

One major criticism of church leadership in Nigeria is that they are veering off into ostentation. The critics point the rising number of high profile pastors who own jets. Do you accept this as valid criticism and what is the rationale for owning these aircraft?

Unfortunately, when you become a top church leader you become a public figure. You become bread and meat for people to eat. I don’t think that is a correct assessment of the situation. What people don’t realise is that for some of the men of God who own jets, owning a jet is not a luxury but a necessity. If I tell you my own schedule it will shock you.

But the critics point to someone like the Pope who sometimes travels by commercial flight…

Thank you for using that word ‘sometimes’ – not every time. Much of the time he has his own plane. But I don’t want to talk about the Pope. I want to talk of some of the men of God that you are probably thinking of right now. Like I said, it depends on the schedule. Are you trying to tell me that these men of God don’t go by commercial transport at all? They do. But many times they can’t help it because of the kind of schedule they have. For example, about a week and a half ago I went to Indonesia. It took me two days to get there. That includes the layovers at the airports. I flew with the Emirates and had to stop in Dubai for hours. I stayed at the airport and then flew to Jakarta. It was not in Jakarta that I was actually going to be preaching – it was somewhere else, so I had to stay at the airport again for another five hours before I finally got a plane to take me to where I was going. I got there and was so fagged out; I was supposed to go church – I couldn’t go. I had to plead to be allowed to go and rest. The day after that I preached and afterwards started coming back home. It took me another two days to get here. I arrived here on Saturday and had to wait again at the local airport to get a flight to Warri – which I couldn’t get – and had to wait for four, five hours again to fly to Benin and then to fly to Warri. And then I had to preach two services on Sunday morning, and then by Monday morning I left to go to Italy. I just came from Italy this last Saturday, preached on Sunday and five A.M. this last Monday I had to drive from Warri to Calabar – which was another seven hours. Yesterday, I drove here. I had some meetings this morning. When I finish with you now I am going into another meeting. Tomorrow, I have meetings all day. On Friday, I head for Abuja. My schedule goes on and on: I won’t see my family for about two weeks. My whole life is in a suitcase going from place to place. I may go from there and continue to Malawi. What I am trying to tell you is that many times it is the schedule, the workload. It is not a luxury. For some of these men owning a jet is like owning a car.

Credit: The nation