OIL SECTOR PROBE REPORTNIGERIANS SHOULDN’T KEEP QUIET – RIBADU

Former Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) boss and presidential candidate of the Action Congress in the 2011 elections Nuhu Ribadu speaks exclusively to Weekly Trust  on the Petroleum Task Force, which he headed, among other issues. Excerpts:

Weekly Trust: Given your experience, it will not be surprising for government to always want to give you a certain task to do. Given what transpired at the petroleum task force, will you make yourself available to such engagement in future?
Nuhu Ribadu: On one side, I’m always ready to give my own contributions towards improving my own country and working for the people. I don’t know anything other than public service all my life, and I do it with all the passion, honesty and good intention. I’ve done it a couple of times, and like you rightly said, I did it not long ago with the Petroleum Revenue Task Force. It was a very difficult decision, but I took it and did it to the best of my ability, but it doesn’t seem to be appreciated.

Up till now, nothing is being done about it; no implementation, not even recognizing that these people did the work. So, with this experience, will I say that if same set of people call me to come and do, whether I will accept or not, I’m not sure. I’m discouraged; I feel somehow disappointed and possibly even let down. But my country, Nigeria; the people of Nigeria are my own people; I’m part of it. I’ll love to help; I’ll love to participate; I’ll want to always do what I’m asked to do to help our country if it is going to make a difference.
You had a problem while submitting the report of the task force, what actually happened?
From the very first day when I accepted to chair the committee, I made it very clear to everybody including our other members that we’re going to do this work for Nigeria and for Nigerians, and we must be honest. I said then that I decided that I was going to do it not because I was expecting anything from anybody.
I refused to take anything from them; from either the Nigeria National Petroleum Corporation (NNPC) or government, including even the allowance; I did not take one penny, one kobo, but I also told other members if they wanted, they could also do the same thing, because I know given the industry and what was involved, it would be very difficult for you to do an honest job if you allow yourself to benefit from that. I considered the job as that of outsiders being asked to come and look and check and tell them the truth. Therefore, we must take ourselves out of it. And there were so many good Nigerians in that committee who did unbelievably well.
But there are also others while doing the work, decided to take appointment in the same industry, the same NNPC, but I thought that was wrong and inappropriate; we kept quiet. We understood that we could still do our own work, and it would not stop or interfere with the outcome. We continued with the work up to the point when we concluded, and at the point of submission to the president, of course you saw what happened.
Part of the observations you made was that Nigeria does not even know how much crude it generates and how much it sells; is that right?
It’s right. If you go into the report, you’ll see what we have said and our recommendations. We said it openly and clearly that nobody will tell you with all the confidence that we know what we’re producing. That is a fact, because no one knows what is coming out from the ground, and if it comes out from the ground, it goes through a process; it goes through the flow station before it comes to the export terminal and the pumping stations, and different companies are doing that at different locations and places.
These wells do not have meters that will be able to measure for government to be able to know what is being taken out. The moment it is taken out, it goes through a process where it is going to be separated, where gas will be taken out; crude oil will be taken out and then water before it comes to a point where it will be stored in preparation for export.
We said let’s have meters; real time reporting. The technology is available now. All over the world, they have it; why don’t we have it here? We made that recommendation; we said that even if it means the companies that are involved in the production must be made to bear the cost of installing these meters; government must have real time reporting of what is going on. It’s not very difficult. Technology will be so much available now that you can get it so easy. You fix in all these wells, even if we have 10,000 wells, and we have a lot of them.
It is very possible for you to build a system through which you will even report immediately. That report could go to, for example, Revenue Mobilization, Allocation and Fiscal Commission, because the constitution says they must know what is our earnings from the resources, from selling things; constitutionally they ought to know. There is nothing wrong for the National Assembly to have information daily of what we’re producing; there is nothing wrong for the office of the president of Nigeria to know that; there is nothing wrong for the Federal Ministry of Finance to also have that daily report. This is what is happening if you go to Norway, Saudi Arabia, countries that produce ten times what you’re producing. Saudi Arabia produces over 10 million barrels of crude oil a day; we produce just 2 million, but they have insight. We say let’s have it.
We invited companies that are providing this; some of them are in Nigeria. We had a very long engagement with them in terms of explaining the technologies that are available. So many companies are here that can do it. We said let’s do it quickly. It’s not going to be too difficult and expensive.
We also said let’s know who’s buying it; NEITI and Customs should know. So, all these things can only be done properly and effectively if you have a very effective metering system. Technology will be able to solve this problem for us; so you’ll know what you’re producing.
We also spoke about the NNPC itself. It will be improper for one organization to be everything; produce, appoint people who produce; regulate;  import; export;   collect the money, they do A-Z. How will you expect proper accountability in such an organization? I think that is not proper. The NNPC must be restructured in a way that there will be transparency and accountability. 
We also spoke about the need for us to do what other oil producing countries are doing: we said don’t appoint contractors to sell our crude oil; we’re the only big country in the world that is doing that. We now produce this crude oil. Ok, we have our own percentage out of it. Out of this percentage, we now appoint contractors where they will now take this crude oil from us to go and sell it to others. Meanwhile, the crude market is very open and direct, and everybody knows; only refineries can buy crude oil; only companies can buy crude oil. All other countries deal directly with the refineries that are buying this crude oil or the countries; why do you need an agent? What is the reason for you to appoint an agent to go and sell it on your behalf? There is a big problem here.
Today, we have appointed 42 of them just a bundle of corruption that is ongoing. You don’t need it; it’s a shame. We said no to what the LNLG is doing. They’re operating as if they’re not in Nigeria, being that they’re outside our system and they’re not accountable to anybody. We said let it not be so; come back on track. We said that there are so many countries that are not paying tax; they’re not paying royalties. We came out with the figures. One company is owing $1.5bn, and they refused to pay.
It’s all in the report. We brought almost all the areas where money is taken and then where corruption is taking place. And we said stop or do something about giving 450,000 barrels of crude oil daily for internal consumption. There is a big problem there. The NNPC is given the monopoly to do what they like with it, they will the refine what they like, and out of it, they will give other companies to do swap. There is a very unclear thing happening in that place. 450,000 barrels of crude oil is too much; it’s almost like   one quarter of what is being produced daily. Our best crude goes to that. We said stop it or adopt a better process of doing it.
The way it is done today, Nigeria is losing; we’re not getting value from that. These are the things that we brought out and asked government to do something about quickly. And if you do those things, I’m telling you it will change this industry immediately, and it will not need any new law for you to implement. You don’t even have to bother yourself about any PIB law. Implement these first: openness, transparency and accountability; bring security to the sector; stop the stealing and the wastage that are taking place there and you’ll see how instantly it can change this industry. You don’t need to go and lobby any National Assembly for you to do that.
There are some areas, of course, you may need to change the laws, but it is not difficult; it is not controversial. Even the National Assembly will not have any issue with these areas. The National Assembly will be so prepared and happy to pass any law that will improve transparency and accountability in the industry. I have no doubt about it.
But will that be the end of the road for the report? Is there no way government can be compelled to implement it?
Well, to be honest I don’t know. It is their own government; it is the president’s government. They’re the ones who appointed this committee, and they said they wanted to improve the industry and the revenue of our country through the task force. They have taken it themselves and they’re sitting on it. I don’t know what anybody can do. The only thing is that Nigerians will continue to talk about it and ask and not to allow it to just die down or be forgotten. 
You know here in our country, someone told me at that time, that look, it’s a matter of two weeks, that Nigerians will move to another issue and everybody will forget about it; that’s why I feel pained. I felt really sad that it is the truth.
However, I will first appeal to Mr. President and respectfully ask him to please implement this report; it is good for him; it is good for government; it is good for the country; it’s good for Nigeria. I will also speak to Nigerians directly and tell each and every one of us, please let’s not be quiet; it’s our own country. Let’s continue to talk, and maybe through that, change will come and hopefully including of course implementation of such report.
Many of the convictions you secured as EFCC boss have been upturned, how do you feel?
It’s very painful, but it’s not even about my own personal disappointment, it’s actually about Nigeria, and those things were done with the best interest of the country. Honestly, it was a very difficult work. We suffered and even made enemies, some paid dearly for them. Take for example the James Ibori matter, by the time we took on James and brought him to justice, he was   in Kaduna prison. When I was asked to leave the EFCC to go to the NIPSS, and while I was in NIPSS, they released him, of course, they killed the case literally and turned it upside down.
For us to take   Ibori to court, we went through difficult process, and for you as an individual, as a Nigerian, right there and then, in front of everybody, you’ll be kicked out of the office and then such a person will be set free. You know it is a very painful thing. I looked at it as I’ve done my own bit; I’ve done my own part, and I moved on.
Luckily for us, justice will always prevail, and whatever evil tried it will never defeat justice. There’s no way the bad thing will win ultimately. We had a strong case; we had good evidence in the case of   Ibori. We even took the money that he gave us bribe as evidence before the court, but the powers-that-be destroyed the case and set him free. But where is he today? Anyway, those are things that I wouldn’t want to talk about; it’ll look as if it’s very personal.
So many things were reversed and lives were toyed with in the name of rule of law and doing things properly and correctly and casting aspersions wrongly and falsely, claiming that things were not done properly and correctly. Meanwhile, not a single case anybody ever brought against either me or the EFCC at that time to any court in Nigeria that we did anything wrong, not even one, but they successfully destroyed the work that we did and almost reversed most of the things. 
Alameyesigha’s case  was also a very difficult case to go through such a powerful, strong individual. He was a governor; we did a very difficult work to bring him to justice. We got a conviction two years, and we recovered billions from him. Right now, there are property all over the world that are yet to   even be claimed; there are outstanding cases all over, but have not yet been concluded.
You talked about challenges in prosecuting the cases, what were these challenges?
They were many. Part of it was we were so misunderstood. People were wrongly accusing you of things that were sad and unbelievable. Those whom you attempted to bring to justice waged a huge campaign against you and falsely. As a human being, it’s very painful. Whenever I hear that somebody is telling me that we did selective thing, it’s very painful; where is the selective? Bring me one individual that we selected and this is the reason why we selected him, and I will respond to that man.
Up till now nobody has ever confronted me with such a thing. And I’m still challenging Nigerians to come forward and say that during the days when we were in the office, we did this thing because of politics. The same people that we were fighting successfully turned the table against us and took over the organization and made money from it, and they’re still there, nothing is happening to them. A lot of them are still out there.
During that time, we suffered; we lost boys. There were so many people who were murdered in the work we did. Yes, families were bereaved. Personally, I survived assassinations, which is okay, I mean that’s fine. Of course, it led me to even leave my country for about two years. 
In a country like Nigeria, it’s not easy to build an agency that delivers. If you look at the EFCC, you know that people really suffered to make it what it is; and to succeed in bringing powerful people to justice is the most difficult thing. At the time when I was there, almost all the people that we brought to justice, quote me, almost all, were even members of the ruling political party, the PDP, just check and see. 
But people believe the EFCC under you stopped many aspirants in the 2007 PDP primaries…
That’s not true, because we were just doing our things properly and correctly, people will just ascribe everything to us. Were we sitting down in the board of the PDP? What was our own business with that? Was the EFCC chairman or president of Nigeria? How could you do that? How do you even give us that power? It’s an imaginary thing; it’s not true, absolutely not true. We could not have done what people are saying we did.
But what we did at that time, and it was the right thing; I’ll still defend it, was that at the time when we were going to go into the elections, already I had with me records of convictions of people who were serving in public offices. But because the public was not aware of it, they were voted not even once, and against our law, against the constitution of Nigeria.
What happened to the monies recovered?
When I was there, I did not even take cases and keep. If it‘s recovery, it goes directly to where it’s supposed to go. Generally if it belongs to state governments, it goes back to the state, or if it is in a court; it is an exhibit pending the time the court will give judgment: the moment court gives judgment, then it is a subject of judgment of court; then it is what the court says that is going to happen. The court may give directive that the property be sold and pay the money back to this, or hand over the property to... it’s a court order normally.
If it is direct recovery, because we did the case of Abacha as well, it goes to the federation account directly; it did not stop anywhere. It doesn’t go into any account.
Peter Odili in his recent book said you were so desperate trying to nail him and...
I’ll be so desperate in trying to do what is right for Nigeria any day, yes, but never to stop him. I have nothing to do with the PDP convention. They chose their voters there. I was not the presidential candidate for me to deny him vice presidential ticket, and how could I have done so? But like I said, if we had investigated you, we have no apology to make public our findings in respect of all the cases. And it is the same case that he went to court to stop; he got a Federal High Court   to stop the EFCC from taking him to court. I think these are the questions that people must ask, not we that tried to do what is right for our own country. And Odili is even a PDP man. On one hand, you said we were doing Obasanjo’s bidding; on another one, you accuse me of stopping Obasanjo from doing his own bidding. This is what is going on.
There are two issues: plea bargain and going to court to get injunctions to stop prosecution or arrest. What challenges do you think they pose to the war against corruption?
At the time when I was there, I didn’t take anything called plea bargain. No. Not at all, but you have to understand where the powers of the law enforcement stop. We do investigation; we now take it to court, and then we present our case to the court. When you go to court, the first thing is that they’ll ask the accused are ‘you guilty or not?’ The moment he says he is guilty, that’s the end of the case. The rest is for the court to sentence him. It’s not the EFCC that sentences.
At the time when we were taking such cases, it was a generally accepted practice in the world that sometimes when you take an accused to court, for him to avoid waste of public funds in prosecuting him; for him to say ‘I’m going to cooperate with you’; for him to say that ‘I’m remorseful,’ all these things now attract sympathetic sentencing from the judge. That is what people are mistaking for plea bargain. 
At the time when we were there, when an accused person goes before a judge and says ‘my lord, I’m prepared to accept my guilt, but please understand that I’m remorseful; I’ll not do it again, and I’m not going to waste the time of the court.’ Normally the court will say ok, and it will reflect on the sentence that will be meted on such a person. At the time when we were doing our thing in the EFCC, there was one or two cases like that. And there’s no way for you to stop him from doing that if he likes; you have no power to say that you cannot go and plead guilty. There’s no way you can stop it.
But sometimes it can be abused, if it will now turn into a conspiracy between a prosecutor and the defence. In that one, I never agreed; I never participated in. We never sat by the side to agree on this type of arrangement. Never! If you come and say that ‘I’m ready to plead guilty,’ it is the court that will decide. If the court asks our own opinion on that, we make it known to the court, and normally it is public. That is what has been going on. But as usual anything in Nigeria, people take it into something different and turn it into another form of fraud.
The issue of court injunctions, restraining law enforcement agents from arresting people...
It’s a tragedy. It’s injustice. It’s not right, and I don’t think it’s right for the court to allow it to continue. Take for example, the reason why we were able to prosecute so many cases was because simply we – we can claim credit for it - insisted and we got the National Assembly to make an amendment to the EFCC law that says when you’re going to go into trials involving our own cases, there will be no interlocutory injunctions; there will be now straw for prosecution until when we have completed the case, like what is happening all over the world.
If you go to UK now, the moment they start prosecution, nobody can stop it until when it is over. That will ensure there will be justice that will be expeditious. The courts will not have any waste of time including the appeal court. We got that in our law, but the case of Ibori was what overturned it. The Court of Appeal gave a ruling saying it was unconstitutional, and I don’t think it’s true. The Supreme Court may have to look at it again critically, because it has not in any way interfered in the right of appeal of the accused person.
What it says is that for the purpose of getting things done properly and correctly, put it all together and then you can appeal. 
There is this notion that Nigeria is full of corrupt people. But during the presidential debate, you said something that Nigerians are not corrupt; how do you reconcile that?
It’s true I said so, and I will say it again. I will not want to call all Nigerians corrupt. It’s wrong, partly because I’m a professional law enforcement agent. I know when it comes to crime, particularly organized crimes, it does happen. At a point we had problem of 419, so many people were involved in it, but it would be wrong for you to call everybody 419. Anyone who says it is being very unfair to us. At times, not many Nigerians were involved in drug trafficking. It will be wrong for anybody to come and say all Nigerians are drug pushers.
We still do have problem of kidnapping. It will be wrong for you to call Nigerians kidnappers. Today, we do have extremists; we have boys who are committing acts of terrorism. It will be wrong for you to call all Nigerians terrorists or suicide bombers. It’s exactly in that sense that I say that it’s wrong for you to call all Nigerians corrupt people.
Corruption happens when the environment allows it. Corruption takes place when the system collapses. Corruption happens when leadership is not doing very well, and you’re unable to come out with systems and structures to be able to make sure that you stop it or not allow it. Or where there is impunity or lawlessness, corruption will take over.

Source: Daily Trust